Dershowitz in Rome, the Pope in Israel

Alan Dershowitz was in Rome today speaking about his most recent book, The Case Against Israel’s Enemies, which just came out in Italian. I was there, and I took notes. (You can hear his press conference–in English–here.)

Here’s what he said, or what I felt was worth remembering (for the rest, you can read his trilogy of books on the subject).

1) Israel is a Jewish country in the same way that Italy is a Italian country. That is, it is not a theocracy ruled by halakha, but a liberal democracy whose inhabitants are for the most part Jews. Apparently this is still a hotly debated point.

2) When it comes to Israel, the Catholic Church imposes moral equivalence. This is especially relevant in light of the Pope’s upcoming trip to Israel. Dershowitz spoke at length about the Church’s failure to grasp its own ideas of “reconciliation”, as if the millennial war against the Jewish people by the Catholic Church is a conflict for which both sides must beg forgiveness. Not so, says Dershowitz. This is blatantly hypocritical rhetoric designed to draw a moral parallel between the aggressor and the victim of aggression. Such unwillingness to confront its own sordid history prevents the Church (understood as the Vatican, not the mass of people calling themselves Catholics) from taking a morally relevant side in the Arab-Israeli conflict. The result, as we have seen, is the Pope’s frequent calls for “peace” and “an end to the violence by both sides.”

3) What I will terms Dershowitz’s Two Laws:

a. If Israel’s enemies put down their weapons tomorrow–all of them–there would be peace.

b. If Israel puts down its weapons–all of them–tomorrow, there would be genocide.

Talking to people afterwards, I got the impression that some Catholics felt he had been hard on the Church. I felt he hadn’t been hard enough, perhaps.

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44 thoughts on “Dershowitz in Rome, the Pope in Israel

    1. Dershowitz ti sarebbe piaciuto. E’ molto animato–un po’ comico stile “Borscht Belt”, un po’ avvocato aggressivo. I thought you were in the loop about these things.

  1. “Israel is a Jewish country in the same way that Italy is a Italian country”.
    Actually no not really. Italy is a italian country meaning that all its citizens, regardless of their religion are being considered italian citizens. Being Italian simply means that you are born in Italy.
    Being Israeli means being Jewish and living in Israel ‘at the exclusivity’ of anybody else. You can be born in Israel as an arab, and not being considered an equal citizen (as Israel is ‘exclusive Jewish’), and you can be born anywhere else in the world and become Israeli on the sole merit of being Jewish.
    To the extend that Israel exludes its arab citizens from being completely Israeli, it is not the same as Italy or any other modern, western democratic state. To the extend that the Arab parties are excluded from the executive branch, it is not even a democracy. It is also the reason Israel by many is being considered a racist state. Considering the whole exclusivity issue, you can understand where that comes from.
    So no, Israel is not like Italy at all.
    Many other dershowitz spins, i have no time to address them all. Dershowitz has the ability to spew nonsense at the rate nobody can keep up with.

  2. This is nonsense. Anyone born in Italy is not Italian. Anyone born outside of Italy to an Italian parent can be Italian, even if he or she never lives in Italy.
    The stuff about Arabs not being Israeli citizens, as well, is hoo-ha. About one-sixth of Israeli citizens are Arabs–both Muslim and Christian. If there are problems (which there are–but then again, this is true in every country), consider that Arabs have been more or less at war with Israel for sixty years. So the fact that Arabs have representation in the Knesset and the right to public expression and dissent (which they exercise) distinguishes Israel from its Arab neighbors in every way.

  3. from the italian embassy in the US:
    WAYS TO BECOME AN ITALIAN CITIZEN

    AUTOMATICALLY 1. by having an Italian parent(s); 2. by being born in Italy: including cases in which the parents are unknown, stateless or do not transmit their own citizenship to their child according to the legislation of the State to which they belong, as well as children found abandoned in Italy and for whom it is impossible to determine status civitatis (citizenship); 3. through paternal or maternal recognition while the child is a minor (in cases in which the child recognised is no longer a minor, he/she is obliged to elect to become a citizen within one year of recognition); 4. by adoption, both if the foreign minor is adopted by an Italian citizen by means of the Italian Judicial Authorities, as well as in the case in which adoption is granted abroad and made effective in Italy through a writ, issued by the Juvenile Court and registered with the Civil Registry. If the adoptee is no longer a minor he/she can become a naturalised Italian citizen after 5 years of legal residence in Italy (see How to Apply: Naturalisation).

    So I guess you were wrong hm?
    So the unequality between jews and arabs in israel is justified because all arabs are enemies of the state?
    Where have I heard that before?
    Also, no, those problems do not occur in every country. In the US all Americans are equal. Some are not more American than others. You don’t have to be of any religion or any race to be an equal american, to have full rights (like participate in the army, being able to marry, represented in the executive branch of the government etc…) So I guess you are wrong there too hm? Why does Israel not have even a constitution that offers equal citizenship to all Israeli? Why can’t jews marry arabs or christians in israel?
    That is a problem that does not occur in other western countries, only in other fascist countries.

    1. a) those born to non-Italian parents on Italian territory become Italian citizens only if they have no other citizenship rights, i.e. in Italy there is no ius soli as in the US, and b) many other countries have a right of return similar to Israel’s. That you dislike Israel is obvious–why you dislike Israel is not. In Jordan, for instance, Jews are prohibited from becoming citizens. The fact that Jordan is at peace with Israel makes this doubly worrisome. Is Jordan a “fascist” state? Racist? I doubt you think so. You seem to judge Israel not by the standards you would use to judge any other country in the world, let alone in the Middle East, where Israel is ahead of the pack in every conceivable humanitarian way. You twist facts to conform to your prejudice and dress them in smugness. Not only this, but you seem to have contempt for the intricacies of Jewish history and the European (and, for that matter, Middle Eastern) Jewish experience which informs Israeli policy, leading to your predictably biased assumptions.

  4. your post makes no sense. It is simply the good old strategie of vilifying anybody that is not crazy about Israel’s 41 year ongoing occupation and its practice of denying its arabs citizens equal citizenship. Can Jordans move to Israel and become Israeli? Without converting to Judaims? I think not. Israel is ‘exclusive’ Jewish, and I am pointing out that is a racist practice not practiced by any other western modern day nation state. Of course other middle eastern countries are human riaghts violators as well. I don’t know why Israel always compares itself with worse instead of better democracies.
    Also, please read again what Italian embassy says, being born in Italy is ENOUGH to be italian citizens. The #2 criteria. And they definately don’t want you to convert to catholicism for you to become Italian.
    It is a sad thing that Israel doesn’t seem to want to become a normal democracy.
    It is also sad you can’t have an argument with somebody without calling them bigot, prejudiced etc. Actually it sort of pathetic. Israel is not going to move forward if it is unable to be critical of itself. I don’t know if you noticed, but progressive history is based upon a healthy dosis of self criticism. I have an enormous respect for what jewish culture has contributed to history in terms of psychology, philosphy, civil rights progress, science etc. It is a shame that they are letting this tradition slip away and are entrapped in some stupid nationalism themselves.

    1. Ok I thought this was clear. Apparently you read English. This is from Wikipedia (a Zionist website??). You were misled by the confusing wording on the website you quoted #2 from.

      By filiation (birth to an Italian parent); this is consistent with the principle of jus sanguinis.
      By birth on Italian territory to stateless parents or to unknown parents or to parents who cannot transmit their nationality; this is partially consistent with the principle of jus soli.
      By paternal/maternal acknowledgment or legitimation.

      Apparently a child born to non-Italian parents in Italy can apply–at 18 years of age–for Italian citizenship. It is not automatic, as you so badly wish.
      My question is: why do you care about Italian citizenship law, unless it in some way verifies your claim that Israel is “racist” by not inviting all the citizens in all the countries in the world to come and partake of the holy sacrament of Israeli citizenship? Does everything in your life revolve around the question, “Can non-Jews do this in Israel? Hmmm???”
      I don’t need to vilify you. You’ve taken care of it for me.

  5. Why is ‘owlminerva’ repeating MISinformation?

    Israel IS a ‘normal democracy’. I can state that with some confidence, having LIVED there. All citizens of ALL faiths, have the SAME rights. They all vote, worship and work as they please – in fact, Israel looks after the holy places of both Islam and Christianity. Which is more than happens in ANY Muslim nation.

    And how on earth is Israel ‘exclusively jewish’???

    30% of Israeli citizens ARE – NOT – JEWISH.

    I think that the OVER ONE MILLION Israeli Arabs, NONE of whom are Jewish, and who live and work there, MIGHT JUST have something to say about that! As would have the NUMEROUS Israeli Christians and B’hai citizens!

    Finally: there is no ‘occupation’. Gaza, for one thing, has been totally under PALESTINIAN ARAB CONTROL for the past five years.

    Nothing else is ‘occupied’. And if ‘owlminerva’ doubts this, I recommend that he/she simply looks up, under international law, just WHO OWNS the ‘west bank’.

    Israel is no more ‘nationalistic’ than any other country and in fact, she is less so than many nations. I’d like to know, where are ‘owlminerva’s condemnations of TRULY RACIST nations – Saudi, Iran, Yemen, Libya, Egypt?

  6. ‘owlminerva’ – I need to CORRECT your bizarre statements about Jordan. Firstly, no Jew is allowed to become a citizen of Jordan or own property there – and this is WRITTEN into their laws.

    Secondly, plenty of NON JEWS live in and become Israeli citizens WITHOUT becoming Jewish. Frankly, your comments have no basis in reality – I don’t know where you are getting your information from but I’m telling you, it is INaccurate in the extreme.

    1. Essentially, ‘owlminerva’ is betting that whoever reads her comments doesn’t have access to the internet. Otherwise they would see in two seconds that she is consitently making up claims out of thin air, hoping nobody calls her on it.

  7. Hmmm… either that or, worryingly, she/he actually **believes** this misinformation about Israel.

    There are lots of people who go around confidently stating as fact ‘only jews can live in israel’ and genuinely don’t realise that this is rubbish.

    Either way, hopefully ‘owlminerva’ will take on board the FACTS now. I tried to post comments on his/her own blog – but they weren’t accepted. Have you seen that blog?

    1. Yes, and judging by its content she is a very concerned citizen worried that Israel is overstepping the goodwill of the nations who so courageously saw to it that the historical injustice of the Holocaust was righted through establishment of a Jewish state. She apparently just can’t bear that Jews stick up for themselves–I think she’d rather let the Righteous of the Nations be their bodyguard. Jews, in her view, are laudable for their contributions to culture. Typical diaspora worship. She uses this to accentuate what she sees as Israel’s betrayal of “good” Jewish values. Her humilty, alas, is sobering:

      “I am no diplomat. And I have a lot more to learn. My perspectives need to widen. Wisdom doesn’t only come from compassion, but from perspective as well. I hope to be as open as possible to anything that can help me understand something.” Maybe you can help her.

      If your reading, ‘owl’, have I missed anything important about your Isra-weltanschauung?

  8. And also to clarify for ‘owlminerva’:

    Listen, honestly, nobody cares if you’re not crazy about Israel. You dislike the country? Fine! That is your RIGHT.

    But what is NOT your right is to go around deliberately spreading LIES about Israel – IF that is what you are indeed doing.

    If you were genuinely convinced of what you stated, and didn’t realise it was utterly inaccurate, then that’s another thing altogether. I look forward to your response and I trust you are a sufficiently decent person to take on board that much of your condemnation of Israel was BASED on MISinformation.

  9. LOL LOL – yes, I did note that she was careful to praise ‘jewish culture’ while bashing Israel.

    The ‘minervaowl’ blog: to be fair, I only read one or two posts, so I wouldn’t want to give an opinion on the blog per se. But the little bit I read was – quelle surprise – condemning Israel for defending itself and again, using MISinformation in order to support that condemnation.

    I’ll try and find the link to the blog if you want to take a look; maybe she/he will actually post your comments since you’ve been decent enough to post theirs 🙂

  10. i did not say that only jews can live in israel. I said that only jews can become citizens of Israel. If you are not a jew, you can’t become an israeli citizen. You can’
    t even marry an Israeli citizens in Irael. You can’t even marry another jew legally unless it is through a religious ceremony. And those 1 million arabs that are living as citizens of Israel (because frankly they were born there and didn’t flee the region when Israel was terrorizing them back in the 40s) are actually being intimidated at the moment by a goverment that is dangerously close extreme right leaning. Arabs DO NOT have equal rights. Ask them, they can tell you. They cannot become israeli soldiers, they are poorer, live not as long, and are NOT represented by the executive branch. That means, they are not equal citizens. Again, ask them, instead of defending your own perspectives with a vengeance, you should talk to people with a different one. The Arabs can tell you how it FEELS to live in Israel as Arabs.
    Gaza is still under Israeli control, Israel controls the borders, airspace, sea etc. That is NOT REAL independence.
    To say that Westbank is not occupied is so absurd I have no words for it. What ‘nationality’ does people living in westbank have? Just answer that one question, what country are they citizens of? I actually find this denial of Israeli atrocities horrific. Not only are Israeli denying that Palestinians are a people with an identity of their own, they are also denying the suffering they cause to this people. That is pretty bad.
    If westbank is israel and not something that israel is illegitimately occupying, then why are the arabs not allowed to vote in israel or do anything else in israel that jewish israeli are allowed to do?
    It is not me who has the facts wrong but you. You are actually a revisionist.
    And it is not me who has problems with different perspectives but you. And it is not because i understand the fear of the israeli and their concerns with safety etc that I think it is ok what they are doing to their neighbors. I also understand the arab perspective, or at least try to understand, what can’t be said from jew with a view (which is more ‘jew with a revionist interpretation of history’) which doesn’t mean I think terrorism and holocaust denial are ok. I can see that you have tried to read my blogs. Maybe you should read them again. I think it is extremely important to understand each other and to see each other as human. That doesn’t mean however that countries are allowed to do whatever they feel like with their own people or their neighbors. I mean I hope you at least understand the difference between seeing different perspectives of things and trying to find solutions for things. One presupposes the other, but they are very different activities. And I do happen to see the ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF WESTBANK AND GAZA as a very big problem that needs to be solved.
    Thank you for your concern for iranian and other arabic violations of human rights. It’s a pity you only use these to prove that Israel is not so bad after all (how sad to have to compare yourself with Iran). I create a lot of havoc on the Arab blogs about this. I don’t see why I should do that on extremely biased pro-israeli sites. If you actually cared about it, maybe we could work together on this issue. But something in me tells me that is not really the point. You simply like to divert attention from Israeli atrocities to arab atrocities, as if they cancel each other out.
    And once again, the attempts to make me look like an ‘anti-semite’ are pathetic. When are you going to learn that these tactics are losing all legitimacy? Besides the fact that you don’t know me at all, and you have no idea whether or not I hate Jewish people simply because they are Jewish, calling anybody that has a little guts to call what Isreal is going in westbank and gaza atrocious anti-semite is stupid because at some point people will realize that you cry wolf indistinctively. And I have a feeling that real victims of anti-semitism aren’t going to appreciate the cheapening of this label to the point that nobody cares anymore whether they are called anti-semite or not.

  11. I also want to address very quicky this ‘condemning israel for defending itself’. That is not what I condemning Israel for. That is your interpretation of events. I condemn israel for having displaced a few hundred thousand people 60 years ago. I believe the way Israel was founded was not just. There were people living them. Isreal actually acknowledges this when they compare the founding of israel with the immoral founding of every other nation. As if every nation is founded on ethnic cleansing. And to this day, the victims of this displacement are living stateless and without an acknowedged identity. That is why I am condemning Israel for.
    I am by the way very flattered with the bunch of you trying to figure out whether I love or hate Israel. I can see that it is very confusing for you to understand that you can crticize something you love. The fundamental christians here in the US also have trouble with that. They call you unpatriotic if you dare to critizice the government. By the way don’t worry, I criticize everybody else too. It’s not just Israel.

    1. Yawn. I found this comment by ‘owlminerva’ here:
      “I sort of agree with Uri Avnery that Ahmadinejad is the best thing that has happened to israeli hardliners.”
      This doesn’t indicate a love affair with Iranian hardliners, or human rights abuses in Iran, but it certainly softens her claim that it is “sad to have to compare yourself with Iran.” You seem to have a sneaking admiration for Ahmadinejad, which doesn’t make a good case for you as a human rights activist.
      Just to place ‘owl’ in context, she has written that Uri Avneri is “Israel’s conscience.” Nothing she says should surprise anyone reading her comments.
      To cap off this volley, ‘owl’ says she write about many different things on her blog. “I criticize everyone”, she boasts. She very badly wants to be a member of the Knesset, it seems. Well, check it out for yourself. It’s positively Isra-centric.

  12. To OWLMINERVA:

    Please tell me which part of this statement of fact you do not understand:

    Non Jews can and do become ISRAELI CITIZENS.

    There. It’s fairly straightforward. I personally KNOW several NON JEWISH people who ARE NOW ISRAELI CITIZENS.

    Again: what part of this simple statement of objective FACT do you not understand or refuse to accept – and WHY do you refuse to accept it?

    When you can give a rational answer to this simple query, I’ll be happy to continue this discussion.

  13. this is all very flattering, this character assasissation. As if I am somebody important. I do appreciate the endorsement of my own little blog. Unfortunately your comments make little sense, i mean I am fan of Iran plus I want to be knesset member? It is very amusing but not very enlightening. And the question as to why israel can’t become a normal democracy hasn’t been solved. There is a lot of denial going on here, but no clarification. The question is simple. Can I come to Israel, marry a Jew (in Israel) and get naturalized? It is not for myself I am asking. But for a bunch of Arabs who find themselves in the position of wanting to marry a Jew and not being able to, at least not in Israel, and if they have the back luck to come from the ‘non-existing’ occupied territories, they aren’t even allowed to come to live with their loved ones. And if I happen to be an Arab minority in Israel, citizen because I never fled in the first place, can I become part of the government and execute power? Why will I live in more povery, less economical development and outright intimidation, as if I am less of a citizen than my fellow Jewish citizens? Why are Netanyahu and lieberman demanding the recognition of Israel as an exclusive Jewish state if there is no conflict between nationality and religion in Israel.
    I don’t know if all this denial of the bunch of you has anything to do with the fact that you have no idea how democracies operate, or if you are blind to the facts….
    I have my own personal reasons to be very interested as to what is going on in Israel. Which i am not going to share with you hehe. It is too much fun hearing all of you speculate with regard to my preferences…
    I can say this though. I think that it matters a lot THAT and even more important HOW this middle eastern conflict ultimately gets solved. The US is involved in 2 wars in the middle east. It has to stop. So unless Israel manages to stop the discrimination, occupation and oppression of the Palestinians by themselves, it will have to accept the fact that the world is going to judge them and trying to interfere. A lit bit along the South africa lines.
    Ok. Now you can call me an anti-Semite again. I know you can’t help yourself. Since you have no real arguments… hehe.

  14. As someone who has lived and studied in the palestinian territories AND visited Israel several times, and in addition writes about the conflict, I have to agree 100% with OWLMINERVA.

    But hey, Marc’s comment of “yawn” is an admission not only that he was wrong, but that he is not willing to refute every single one of your facts.

    Good job.

    ps: im not anti-semitic, im not arab, im not jewish, im not muslim, im not christian….(just in case, because I can already see the claims of anti-semitism raining down on me)

  15. Good G-d, how many times must I repeat the SAME statement???

    Yes, you can move to Israel and BECOME AN ISRAELI CITIZEN.

    I’ve said it several times – again, what part of this simple statement of FACT are you refusing to absorb???

    ———————————————————-

    Nobody can have a civil marriage, at present, in Israel – Jews included. But this DOES NOT prevent NON JEWS from becoming FULL ISRAELI CITIZENS.

    ———————————————————-

    I did not call you an ‘anti semite’. I have simply pointed out that you are REFUSING to read what I am writing.

    ——————————————————–

    Yes, Israeli Arabs CAN and DO have the same rights and freedoms as ALL OTHER ISRAELIS, of ALL FAITHS. If you don’t believe me, then check out http://www.arabsforisrael.com

    Arabs hold positions in the Knesset and they even represent Israel at political events around the world. I have posted something about this on my blog, feel free to visit.

    ———————————————————-

    What ‘occupation’? As Israel LEFT Gaza five years ago, how are Palestinians there ‘occupied’??? Gaza has been under PALESTINIAN control for years.

    ———————————————————–

    Please get your FACTS straight – you are speaking from a position of total ignorance every time you refer to ‘occupied territories’.

    There are none.

    Here are the FACTS:

    According to international law, the Jews have the complete and unquestionable right to settle the territories of Judea, Samaria and Gaza (collectively known as Yesha). Not a single enforceable international document exists that forbids them from settling the lands of Yesha.

    On the contrary, the only existing enforceable document actually encourages Jewish settlement.

    This document was created on April 24, 1920 at the San Remo Conference when the Principal Allied Powers agreed to assign the Mandate for the territory of Palestine to Great Britain.

    By doing so the League of Nations “recognized the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine” and established “grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country.” Article 6 of the Mandate “encouraged … close settlement by Jews on the land,” including the lands of Judea, Samaria and Gaza (Yesha).

    There is nothing whatsoever in the Mandate that separates Yesha from the rest of the mandated territory. That means that the right of the Jews to settle the land spreads to the whole of Palestine. As a side note it is worth mentioning that the 76% of the territory of Mandated Palestine known today as Jordan, were not permanently exempt from settlement by the Jews either. Article 25 only allowed to “postpone or withhold application of [this] provision.”

    With the disbanding of the League of Nations, the rights of the Jews to settle the territories of Palestine, including Yesha, were not hurt. When in 1946 the United Nations was created in place of the League of Nations, its Charter included Article 80 specifically to allow the continuation of existing Mandates (including the British Mandate).

    Article 80 stated that “nothing … shall be construed in or of itself to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever … of any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments to which Members of the United Nations may respectively be parties.”

    Then in November 1947 came time for Resolution 181, which recommended the Partition of Palestine. Like all UN Resolutions pertaining to the Jewish-Arab conflict it was not enforceable. It was simply a recommendation, and the Arab countries rejected it. As the Syrian representative in the General Assembly stated:

    “In the first place the recommendations of the General Asembly are not imperative on those to whom they are addressed… . The General Assembly only gives advice and the parties to whom advice is addressed accept it when it is rightful and just and when it does not impair their fundamental rights”

    If the resolution had been implemented maybe it would be possible to argue that it replaced the San Remo Conference resolution, which had legitimized the rights of the Jews to settle in any place in Palestine.

    However, it was not only rejected by the Arabs, but in violation of the UN Charter they launched a military aggression against the newly reborn Jewish state thus invalidating the resolution. By the time of the cease-fire at the end of the War of Independence there was still no other enforceable document pertaining to the rights of the Jews to settle Eretz Yisrael – they remained intact.

    Now we approach the most misunderstood aspect of the scope and application of international documents. In order to resolve the puzzle of the “occupied” territories, one must clearly distinguish between the different types of resolutions passed by the United Nations.

    Misconceptions about the issue led to the question of a double standard that was constantly raised by the Arabs after the Persian Gulf War. The Arabs were unable to understand why from Iraq the UN demanded compliance with the decisions of the international body, while Israel was not forced to comply with UN resolutions.

    On April 3, 1998 Swedish Foreign Minister Lena Hjelm-Wallen, well known for championing the Arabs’ position, in an interview with the London al-Quds al-‘Arabi, gave an explanation of this “paradox.” She was asked, “What about the double standards that the United States and Europe adopt when it comes to Arab issues?”

    She answered,

    “I understand this view, which is common in many Arab countries. Nevertheless, the UN resolutions passed on Iraq are different, because they are binding for all nations according to Article 7 of the UN Charter. Meanwhile, the resolutions passed against Israel are not subject to Article 7 of the Charter.”

    To better understand the way UN resolutions work, it is worth reading an open letter by Uri Lubrani, coordinator of Israeli activities in Lebanon, addressed to Lebanon’s Foreign Minister Faris Buwayz and published on February 27, 1998 in the Paris newspaper al Watan al-‘Arabi. Although the letter was written regarding Resolution 425, it talks about all resolutions pertaining to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Uri Lubrani wrote the following,

    “…There are two types of resolutions in the Security Council. The first type are resolutions passed on the basis of Chapter Six of the UN charter that relates to the settlement of disputes through peaceful means. Such resolutions are considered recommendations. They are not binding, and they do not require immediate implementation… . The second type of resolutions are based on Chapter Seven of the UN charter… . This chapter grants the UN Security Council resolutions an implementative authority and commits the international community to use force if necessary to implement these resolutions. …None of the UN Security Council resolutions pertaining to the Arab Israeli conflict, including Resolution 425, were passed on the basis of Chapter Seven. They were passed on the basis of Chapter Six of the UN charter, which is the basis also of UNSC Resolutions 242 and 338.”

    Since no mandatory UN Resolution exists pertaining to the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are left with the San Remo Conference decision that governs land ownership in Palestine. That means that not a single enforceable internationally valid document exists that prevents or prohibits the Jews from settling anywhere in Judea, Samaria, Gaza and all the rest of Eretz Yisrael. Or, to put it differently, from the standpoint of international law FOR THE JEWS IT IS NOT AN OCCUPIED LAND.

    This conclusion was confirmed not long ago by an unexpected (for Israel) source. It is hard to argue with the fact that James Baker, former US Secretary of State, was not the best friend of the Jewish state. However, he categorically rejected the mislabeling of the lands of Yesha.

    This happened at the Middle East Insight Symposium in Washington on May 4, 1998. Hoda Tawfik, from the newspaper Al Ahram asked him, “What do you think is right? That these are occupied Arab territories and not disputed territories?” Baker replied, “They’re clearly disputed territories. That’s what Resolutions 242 and 338 are all about. They are clearly disputed territories.”

    All of this means that when the Jews build settlements in Yesha, they are not building them on “occupied” territories. If one wants, one may call them “disputed” territories, as Baker did. However, this will still not change the fact that from the standpoint of international law it is the very land where the Jews were encouraged to settle.

    And as a final note, it should not be surprising that the San Remo Conference plays such an important role in this particular case. The majority of the other players in the conflict: Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. gained sovereignty over their territories based on the decisions of exactly the same conference. The Jews finally deserve to settle freely on their territories as well. It is time to stop labeling them “occupied”.

  16. ‘owlminerva’s bizarre attempt to compare Israel to South Africa reveals her ignorance on this entire topic. In Israel people of ALL faiths, ALL colours, ALL ethnicities, have the SAME rights and freedoms. That is comparable to South Africa HOW, precisely…?

    Oh, and if as she states, ‘owlminerva’ believes that those speaking up for Israel ‘have no real argument’ then WHY is she BOTHERING TO STILL POST HERE?

  17. it was actually olmert’s idea to compare israel to south africa, it was Bishop Tutu’s idea to compare Israel to South africa… maybe they are also totally ignorant on the topic?
    Look i think you and I will have to agree to disagree. You think i am falsifying reality, I think you are the one who is doing the falsifying. If you are going to claim that there is no apartheid going on while there are separate roads for jews and arabs (westbank) and where westbank arabs can’t vote, don’t even have any rights, israeli citizenship etc in a region that Israel claims is Israel … and if you are going to claim that despite the fact that Israel does not grant Westbankers voting rights, and despite the fact you can’t walk two meters without having to pass a military checkpoint, it is wrong to talk about occupation while the israeli government themselves are talking about the occupied territories every two seconds, and if you are going to claim that Israel is just like any other country when arabs that were BORN in the land that became israel, whose parents were born in the land that became Israel, but now can’t return and claim citizenship, then you and I have nothing in common. To me talking to you seems as absurd as talking to holocaust deniers. Since those are shooting out of the ground at the speed of lightening recently, I had a dosis of arguing with them as well. I have to say, I am very worried where this all will be going. With one side denying the holocaust, and the other side denying the fact they they are currently mistreating people and occupying them, not even recognizing them as people with their own identity, everything is set up for the the spiraling out of control of hatred.

  18. You didn’t even read what I posted, did you? I addressed your repeated LIE about ‘non jews can’t become Israeli citizens’ and you haven’t even acknowledged it!

    Now, re checkpoints: you are aware that ALL ISRAELIS, Jews included, ALSO have to pass through them, right? No, clearly you are NOT aware! How is it ‘discrimination’ if ALL ISRAELIS are checked??? LOL LOL LOL You are SO desperate to bash Israel, you don’t even bother to get your facts right!

    You also fail to understand that ISRAELI ARABS are ISRAELIS. The only people that can’t claim ‘right of return’ to Israel are the Palestinian Arabs WHO LEFT PURELY WHEN THE ARAB LEADERS TOLD THEM TO – because SIX ARAB ARMIES were poised to attack Israel, which they did twelve hours later!

    Don’t believe me? Perhaps you’ll believe the ARAB LEADERS and ARAB MEDIA and MUSLIM LEADERS who ADMIT IT:

    * “The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem.”
    – Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.

    * “The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.”
    – The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.

    * “Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it.”
    – The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.

    * “The 15th May, 1948, arrived … On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead.”
    – The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.

    * “For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs … By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy.”
    – The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.

    For anyone who wants accurate info on the checkpoints:
    http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=3235ab7c4554ea19e09b

  19. to marc:
    Are you honestly claiming that the checkpoint policy affects jews as badly as arabs? Are you saying that jews don’t live a lot easier in westbank than the arabs? Are you saying there are as many checkpoints in israel itself as in the westbank? Are you saying jews don’t pass much easier through the checkpoints than arabs? And what about the ‘arab-free’ roads, what about the fact that westbank arabs can’t vote in israeli elections? If Israel is not occupying them, then why aren’t they allowed to be equal citizens? What about the fact that arabs are being excluded from the executive branch? Do you have any idea how contradictory you sound when on the one hand you claim israel to be as democratic as italy but on the other hand thinks its completely normal to deny citizenship to people that were born in the land that is now called israel, from parents that were born there as well etc? And by the way, it is nearly impossible for anybody that is not-jewish to become an israeli citizen. I have a friend that married an israeli and it is practically impossible for her to go and live with him in HIS country. She is American. And then we are not even speaking about Israeli Arabs that want to marry a westbank or gaza arab (the non-existent occupied territories, there is even a law BANNING them from going to live with their spouse in Israel (so called security reasons). It is these people that are affected the most by Israel’s racist practices. Maybe for you the concept of solidarity is hard to understand, but there are people that find all this stuff intolerable. This is not even a matter of jews versus non-jews, as there are plenty of jews that agree that there should be finally justice for the Palestinians. You know these jews, it’s people like you that calls them self-hating. The ugliness of this insult is still mind-boggling to me. You will go that far to call people with a different vision on what they country should become self-hating… very nice. There are also plenty of non-jews that belief fanatically in the war against terror and think israel is the gate to heaven itself. This is not a jewish-versus non-jewish issue but an issue of people that care for justice versus people that belief anything is acceptable when self-interest is at state.

    Also, the myth that the arabs fled their homes because of arab leaders as opposed to israeli terror has been debuked a million times already. Not in the least by israeli academics. You didn’t know?

    anyway, you can go on stating that there are no problems in israel, or that the existing problems are totally caused by evil arabs. Or insult anybody that points this out, instead of trying to learn something. That is totally your choice. But don’t except everybody else to accept your nonsense.
    By the way this is not about bashing israel. This is about a conflict that has ramifications for everybody. Not just Israel and Palestine.
    And by the way, you have not addressed ANY of my questions to you. I am starting to think you are not very friendly to people who disagree with you…

  20. Hilarious the way you consisently *ignore* every point I make.

    This is not a discussion. This has become just a never-ending rant on your part. For a discussion to occur YOU would need to actually ADDRESS the points I MAKE.

    Instead, you ignore them, and then offer anecdotal ‘evidence’ to support your unfounded claims. I have yet to see a single fact nor statistic from you.

    You then start entering the realm of total paranoia, by accusing Marc of being ‘not very friendly to people who disagree with you’.

    I mean for crying out loud: he’s PUBLISHING your posts! What more do you want? He’s been entirely courteous to you, in fact.

    I assume you’ll ignore these comments of mine, as you’ve ignored all others. As I said before: hilarious.

  21. it is indeed hilarious because you have just written the post i wanted to write you. I guess we share the same idea of each other.
    I don’t know if you have noticed that neither you or marc have responded to anything I wrote. Everything you wrote was besides the point. I told both of you how I see Isreali racism manifest itself. You are marc are responding that I am totally ignorant and I am making it all up. That is not a counter argument, I don’t know what the hell it is, but it is not an argument and it is not productive, as we are still left with about 4 million angry palestinians displaced. Palestinians that are not occupied yet have no civil rights in Israel. You did not address any of these issues! You completely ignored it! So this discussion or whatever it is hasn’t led to anything. You and I seem to think of each other that each makes up reality. I don’t think there is ground for communication.
    My comment of marc ‘not being very friendly’ is not paranoia. It is sarcasm. From in the beginning his strategy was attacking me instead of my argument. Yes, i do expect to be treated with courtesy when i bother reply to somebody’s blog. That didn’t exactly happen here. Call me old fashioned. And I live in America, not Israel or Iran, so I am used to disagreements being published. I am not going to drop on my knees in gratitude for publishing something. I publish everything too unless there are outright antisemitic or racist slurs involved. If marc expects everybody to agree with him he shouldn’t start a public blog. Apperently he doesn’t know how to handle it without insulting his readers.

    1. I admit to being utterly baffled at this point. ‘Owl’ has posted questions, and I have answered them to the best of my knowledge (the whole debate began with a misunderstanding of Italian immigration law, which I cleared up), I have never called anyone an anti-Semite, racist or fascist (at least, no one but Ahmadinejad), and, to boot, Jew With a View has written tomes of commentary addressing every single point of contention…and it appears ‘Owl’ has read nothing but her own comments, and prattles on as if she had been talking to a void for two weeks.
      Humor me, ‘Owl’: what, at this point, do you want? For me to agree with your every misinformed, judgmental, bigoted claim about Israel? Really? I’m beginning to rethink having called you “probably a decent person.” שוין גענוג!

  22. OWLMINERVA:

    To clarify: I don’t have ANY opinion of you as a person. How can I? I don’t know you! So no, we don’t ‘share the same idea of each other’ because I don’t judge people that I have never met.

    I only know two things about you:

    1 – you have totally ignored my points. To give one example: you repeatedly stated, wrongly, that non Jews ‘cannot become israeli citizens’.

    And no matter that I have corrected this umpteen times, you have not acknowledged either that you were mistaken OR that I have directly addressed your false assertions.

    2 – the only other thing I know about you is that, somehow, you have ended up with **some** incorrect information about Israel which you NOW present as ‘fact’.

    These things aside, I know nothing about you. I am perfectly willing to accept that you may be a lovely person who truly does mean well.

    My frustration is that you repeatedly MISrepresent the actual facts firstly about Israel’s history and secondly, about many aspects OF life in Israel, today.

    Do I claim Israel is perfect?
    No.

    Do I deny that there exist problems in Israel?
    No.

    Do I care when false assumptions about Israel are presented as ‘fact’?
    Hell yeah!

  23. i did not say that you have opinions of me as a person. I said that we both see the other as distorting reality, that is what we share. I think that you are the one that is spreading propaganda and incorrect information and has no idea what she is talking about and you are the one that has not addressed any of my criticism. (marc neither he only knows how to insult).
    So here we go again. Jews born anywhere in the world can become israeli. Arabs born in that land from parents born in that land cannot return to it and become israeli citizenships. Show me one other western democratic country in the world where natives can’t get citizenship. This is complete racist policy. We are talking about arabs and the right of return. Allthough I have a friend that is in the process of trying to get israeli citizenship (she married an israeli) and it is almost impossible) she is now converting to judaism. Imagine that. They are making her convert in order to live with her husband in his country. Arabs from the occupied territories are banned from living with their israeli palestinians spouses in Israel. That law has a name. Look it up. It’s your country. You should know about these things.

  24. Also, arabs are not represented in the executive branch. Of course there are a few in the knesset, but that is not the executive branch. I don’t think there has ever been an arab party that was part of the government. I would be interested in knowing that for sure.
    Also, besides all the issues above, you also did not address the status of the 4 million west bank arabs that are according to you living in israel proper. If they are living in what you consider israel then why is israel not granting them citizen rights? These people are living without status, passport, among hundreds of checkpoints, no voting rights, roads they can’t use etc… That is very, very undemocratic. Either israel is occupying westbank and then they have to withdraw, or israel is not occyping westbank because westbank is israel, then israel has to treat these people as they would treat their own. Please address this issue.
    You keep saying gaza is under palestinian control. That is a rediculous statement. Even the register is under israeli control. Israel controls the airspace, waters and landborders. Israel controls how much food, medicines and other essential products enter gaza. I doubt any nation in the world would consider this sovereignty.
    To say that israel is not perfect is the understatement of the year. They have a very, very long way to go before they can claim to be the democracy they pretend to be.

  25. Here are the problems with your points:

    (Oh, and by the way, Britain is ‘my country’ – I was born in Britain, raised in Britain, currently live IN Britain).

    1 – you say that I ‘don’t know what you’re talking about’. But you see, I have simply stated the historically verifiable *facts*.

    For example: you have repeatedly stated that ‘non jews can’t become Israeli citizens’. I have repeatedly PROVEN this is UNTRUE. You have not even had the decency to ACKNOWLEDGE that you were utterly wrong. So in this as in many other instances it is YOU who didn’t know the facts and certainly not me.

    2 – if you want to claim that Israel is ‘racist’, then you also have to make the same claim for the following countries: Jordan, Yemen, Iraq, Libya, Germany, Australia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt.

    All of these countries operate similar or in most cases STRICTER immigration policies than Israel. Jews lived as ‘natives’ in Iraq, for instance, for THOUSANDS of years. Yet they were kicked out overnight with literally just the clothes on their backs. They cannot become citizens in either Iraq or Jordan – in Jordan NO JEW CAN OWN PROPERTY.

    Where are your attacks on *these* and other countries, then? I have yet to see them. Instead, you focus exclusively on Israel.

    Now to your more specific points:

    * No ‘natives’ are being refused citizenship in Israel. This is an easily disproven assertion that you are making. The Palestinian Arabs only ARRIVED IN WHAT IS NOW ISRAEL *after* the Palestinian Jews, and Jews from other nations such as Yemen, had drained the swamps and transformed marsh and desert into a viable place to live and in doing so, created many work opportunities.

    The Palestinian Arabs that CHOSE to leave their homes so as to make way for the SIX ARAB ARMIES that then attacked Israel, have no claim of ‘right of return’, which is essentially what you are arguing for. Would YOU let people into YOUR HOME if they PUBLICLY VOWED TO DESTROY IT?

    No, of course you would not – yet you demand that Israel does?
    That makes you a hypocrite.

    ——————————————————-

    Oh my goodness – you state that my claim that Gaza is under Palestinian control is ‘ridiculous’???

    Sorry Owl, but in all honesty, you have just lost any credibility.

    Gaza is controlled by Hamas. This is OBJECTIVE ***FACT***.

    Israel does NOT control all of the airspace, and please remember that EGYPT ALSO BORDERS GAZA. Again: where are YOUR demands that EGYPT do something to help Gaza?

    The Palestinians promised Israel – PUBLICLY – that if she left Gaza, terrorism would decrease. The Palestinians said that ALL they wanted was self rule.

    That was fair enough. So Israel left. Hamas got DEMOCRATICALLY VOTED IN BY THE PALESTINIANS.

    Terrorism against Israel then INcreased. In other words: if Israel is or is not in Gaza, Israelis get killed in their THOUSANDS by Palestinian suicide bombers and missiles.

    Palestinians insisted on self rule AND at the same time DEMANDED that Isral pay for their water, electricity and fuel.

    Would YOU pay the bills of a group of people who were TRYING TO KILL YOU and who PUBLICLY VOWED TO DESTROY YOU?

    Your absurd, absurd statement that Israel still controls Gaza is so asinine I am astonished. If you want to deny reality, so be it. But it’s clearly a waste of my time to continue this discussion – how can we ever move forward when you deny the established FACTS?

    Go and read the HAMAS Charter. Do that one thing – and then tell me that they are not a threat to Israel. Are you aware that Hamas was spawned as the same extremist Muslim group as AL QUEDA?

    Do you even know that HAMAS and AL QUEDA share the same aims? When Al Queda attacks America, it’s for the exact same reasons that Hamas attacks Israel – they openly ADMIT THIS.

    Oh, and have YOU ever been to GAZA…?

    No?

    So you haven’t seen the OVERFLOWING shops full of food? The warehouses full of aid and goods?

    I’m always happy to debate but while you are denying verifiable fact, there’s just no point.

  26. As ‘Owl’ keeps – wrongly – claiming that Israeli Arabs are not represented in the Knesset, I thought it might be helpful to set her straight, and also illustrate for others reading this:

    There have been Israeli Arab members of the Knesset since the first Knesset elections in 1949. The following is a list of the sixty-three past and present members.

    Current Members (13)

    Name ↓ Party(s) ↓ Knesset(s) ↓ Comments ↓
    Afu Agbaria Hadash 18th

    Hamad Amar Yisrael Beiteinu 18th

    Mohammad Barakeh Hadash 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th Former Deputy Knesset speaker

    Taleb el-Sana Arab Democratic Party, United Arab List 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th

    Masud Ghnaim United Arab List 18th

    Ayoob Kara Likud 15th, 16th, 18th
    ***Deputy Knesset speaker***

    Said Nafa Balad 17th, 18th

    Ibrahim Sarsur United Arab List 17th, 18th

    Hana Sweid Hadash 17th, 18th

    Ahmad Tibi Ta’al 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th

    Majalli Wahabi Likud, Kadima 16th, 17th, 18th ***Former Deputy Knesset speaker, briefly acting President

    Jamal Zahalka Balad 16th, 17th, 18th

    Haneen Zoubi Balad 18th First Arab woman elected on an Arab party’s list.

    Past Members (50)

    MK Party(s) Knesset(s) Comments

    Ahmed A-Dahar Progress and Development 4th, 5th

    Mahmud A-Nashaf Agriculture and Development 4th

    Hamad Abu-Rabia Arab List for Bedouins and Villagers, Alignment, United Arab List 8th, 9th

    Laviv-Hussein Abu-Rochan Cooperation and Brotherhood 4th

    Asaad Asaad Likud 13th

    Shafik Asaad Dash, Democratic Movement, Ahva, Telem 9th

    Zeidan Atashi Shinui 9th, 11th

    Rostam Bastuni Mapam 2nd

    Azmi Bishara Balad 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th

    Abdulwahab Darawshe Alignment, Arab Democratic Party, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th

    Abdulmalik Dehamshe United Arab List 14th, 15th, 16th **Deputy Knesset speaker**

    Yussef Diab Cooperation and Brotherhood 4th

    Seif-El-Din El-Zubi Democratic List of Nazareth, Democratic List for Israeli Arabs, Progress and Development, Cooperation and Development, Alignment, United Arab List 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th,

    Hussein Faris Mapam 12th

    Emile Habibi Maki, Rakah 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th

    Haneh Hadad Labour 13th

    Faras Hamdan Agriculture and Development 2nd, 3rd

    Yussuf Hamis Mapam 3rd, 4th, 5th

    Salah-Hassan Hanifes Progress and Work 2nd, 3rd

    Nadia Hilou Labour 17th

    Rafik Haj Yahia Labour, One Nation 14th

    Halil-Salim Jabara Ahdut HaAvoda 5th

    Hussniya Jabara Meretz 15th First female Arab MK

    Amin-Salim Jarjora Democratic List of Nazareth 1st

    Muhamad Kanan United Arab List, Arab National Party 15th

    Masaad Kassis Democratic List for Israeli Arabs 2nd, 3rd

    Hamad Khalaily Alignment 10th

    Tawfik Khatib United Arab List, Arab National Party 14th, 15th,

    Hashem Mahameed Hadash, Balad, United Arab List, National Unity – National Progressive Alliance 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th

    Raleb Majadele Labour 16th, 17th First Muslim Arab Minister (currently Minister of Science, Culture & Sport)

    Issam Makhoul Hadash 15th, 16th

    Nawaf Massalha Alignment, Labour, One Israel 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th Deputy Knesset speaker

    Mohammed Miari Progressive List for Peace 11th, 12th

    Jabr Moade Democratic List for Israeli Arabs, Cooperation and Brotherhood, Cooperation and Development, Druze Party, Progress and Development, Alignment, United Arab List 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th

    Hanna Mwais Hadash 9th

    Mohamed Naffa Hadash 12th

    Elias Nahale Progress and Development, Cooperation and Development, Jewish-Arab Brotherhood, Cooperation and Brotherhood 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th

    Amal Nasereldeen Likud 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th
    Diyab Ovid Cooperation and Brotherhood 5th, 6th, 7th

    Ahmad Sa’d Hadash 14th

    Walid Sadik Left Camp of Israel, Meretz 9th, 13th, 14th

    Saleh Saleem Hadash 13th, 14th

    Tzalach Saliman Progress and Work 3rd

    Wasil Taha Balad 16th, 17th

    Salah Tarif Alignment, Labour, One Israel 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th First Arab Minister (Minister without Portfolio) , also Deputy Knesset speaker

    Tawfik Toubi Maki, Rakah, Hadash 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th **************Second longest serving Knesset member (41 years, 5 months and 9 days) after Shimon Peres *******************

    Muhammed Wattad Alignment, Mapam, Hadash 10th, 11th

    Abbas Zakour United Arab List 17th

    Tawfiq Ziad Rakah, Hadash 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th

    Abdul-Aziz Zoabi Mapam, Alignment 6th, 7th, 8th First Arab Deputy Minister

    Now – how many JEWS, or NON MUSLIMS, appear in the parliaments of Islamic countries…?

  27. And ‘Owl’ – please stop demanding that we comment on your *anecdotal* story of a ‘friend’. Firstly, we don’t know the details and secondly, there’s no way to even prove this person exists, frankly.

    Kindly either argue using facts and figures, or have the decency to admit you can’t do so.

  28. i did not say that there were no arabs in the knesset, in fact I said ‘of course there are a few arabs in the knesset’. I said that there are no arabs in the government. The EXECUTIVE branch. Look it up. I assumed you understood the difference between legislative and executive branch. So all that effort trying to refute me for nothing. Maybe you should start paying a little bit more attention to is written.
    To deny people citizenship because they left the country of their own free will frankly is not good enough reason. In fact I left my own country of my free will and they didn’t take away my citizenship as soon as they could. In fact, i will remain citizen of my country as long as I choose. Not as long as my government chooses. Because we are constitutionally protected. But oh, wait a second, Israel doesn’t have a constitution that protects its minorities!!! Damn! Besides, the arabs did not flee of their own free will during nabka. Look that up too. Like I said to marc the great insulter, that myth has been sufficiently debunked by nearly every serious historian, including Israeli historians.
    Again, you have it wrong if you think that gazans control their waters, airs etc. They don’t even control their imports. That is not souvereignty by any standards except israeli standards. I wonder if Isreal would still think it was treated as a sovereign nation if we suddently decided what foods and other goods could enter Israel and which airplanes can fly above it etc. But anyway, if you insists the gazans control gaza go ahead. I will simply state you have the facts wrong. Again.
    I won’t talk about terrorism because I don’t see the relevance of it. The rockets are caused by the occupation. Israel is the cause of the violence against it. It’s like calling occupied countries during WWII terrorists for resisting the germans. There is no point arguing this with you because you don’t believe there is an occupation going on, you don’t even believe in the existence in palestinian identity and their right to claim a piece of land. Talking about denial. I am not talking about egypt, jordan etc either because we are talking here about israel. And I don’t have to talk about egypt jordan etc with anybody if we are talking about israel. If we are discussing the US I don’t bring up France, Germany etc either. That simple. Stick to the bloody topic.
    I have no time for all the other nonsense of your post. And I am not going to give you the name of my friend who is trying to settle in israel. Do you own research. It is extremely easy to find people who are having trouble settling in israel to join their spouses. People that are not arabs. Arabs have no chance at all. Due to Israel’s fundamentally racist policies.
    I am done with you. You don’t read what i write correctly. You have no correct information about anything (except the names of the arabs that are part of the knesset), you belief in myths that have been debuked a decade ago. You don’t understand how a democracy functions and how it protects its minorities, you don’t know the basic differences between legislative, executive and juridical branches. And you have no sense of solidarity with people that are a lot worse of than yourself.

  29. to marc who wrote: “Your friend should have married a Saudi, Owl. Her life would certainly have become easier and less humiliating.”

    I would argue with you except that you have no arguments. You only insult. This time I guess the Saudis.

    1. It’s a wonder anyone still bothers, Owl. For me, I’m seeing how far you can go tying yourself in knots of illogic and bigotry. And then calling me an illogical bigot. In Israel (and the US, which you should be familiar with) they call this ‘chutzpah.’ You may have read the word in a Norman Finkelstein book at some point.

  30. Your ‘logic’ is appalling.

    And yet again, you have failed to address a SINGLE point or question that I have addressed to you.

    You are determined to demonise Israel to the extent that you refuse to accept established facts, and instead rant and rave and offer *anecdotal* cases which can never be discussed as we can’t even ascertain their veracity.

    MARC has been extremely polite to you. Yet you repeatedly hurl insults at him, here on his own blog.

    It’s an utter waste of time attempting to have any civilised discussion with you. I’m glad you’ve said you’re not returning to continue with this ‘debate’ – that’s the first rational remark you’ve made.

    1. Jew with a View: I’m assuming you are as fascinated as I am by the length of this discussion in which one side explains and the other bitches that nobody is explaining anything. Unless you concede to all Owl’s ‘points’, you might as well be writing to her in Hebrew. She doesn’t seem to understand a word that you’ve written.

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